Point Blank with James Astill on Terrorism and Militant Islamism...
Sunday, 05 August 2007 20:00
17 Comments
This week, we chat up with James Astill from 'The Economist', the recepient of the annual Gerald R. Ford prize for distinguished reporting in National Defence. Jame's business card a few months ago read, 'Defence and Terrorism Correspondent'. Meeting terrorists or "fairly rough characters" as he likes to call them is an occupational hazard for someone who bears the tag of a Defence Correspondent. Over the past decade, he's visited Cuba, Sudan, Congo, Afghanistan and many more places including a 6 year stint with Islamabad. In this 20 min talk, James gives us his hands on insights on Pakistan. James feels that India's sometimes friendly neighbour is changing and that it is India's turn to extend its hand for peace. (Image Source: The Guardian.)
James keeps it jargon free and simple. He feels that an average Pakistani citizen is more aware of his Indian counterpart than vice versa. His experience with the two countries tells him that there is a huge amount of misinformed scepticism among the Indians about Pakistan. He talks about the Kite flying festival of Basant which is a big hit in Pakistan and feels that not much separates the two countries culturally! He seeks to answer the following questions (among others):
- How does a terrorist think? (Does he?)
- What's with all the educated community (Read: notorious doctors) taking to guns for mass murders?
- What is the common man's perspective in Pakistan about Musharaf and his 'rule'?
- Does the media play a part in glorifying the rivalry between India and Pakistan?
- Why does The Economist think that India is overheating when for more than 200 million Indians, survival is a novelty!
Currently, the South Asia Bureau Chief, James is based out of Delhi, India. The file size is very light for a relatively heavy topic. Hope you enjoy the chat. More importantly, james and I would like to know what your views on the talk.
Listen Online (64 kbps) : Episode length: 21 mins
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Comments
0
#1
2007-08-06 12:26
Enjoyed the lively point blank session with James Astill. The observation about men on street in Pakistan and India is truly an eye opener. Thanks a lot for this insightful chat with someone who chose to deal with fairly rough characters as his vocation!
-Abhay
-Abhay
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#2
2007-08-06 16:34
Nice chat. Considering the lack of enough blog voices from Pakistan, the skepticism among Indians for Pakistanis sadly isn\'t waning. As James rightly notes, the more contact people have with each other, the better it will be for dispelling misconceptions and ill-feelings and any affair regarding the two countries need not be a zero-sum game.
Good job with the questions, Abhishek. You are definitely more informed and nuanced than the average journalist who only seeks sensationalism. Now only if you get some authority figure on Point Blank and ask uncomfortable probing questions.
Good job with the questions, Abhishek. You are definitely more informed and nuanced than the average journalist who only seeks sensationalism. Now only if you get some authority figure on Point Blank and ask uncomfortable probing questions.
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#3
2007-08-07 09:30
Great work Abhishek. Congo on roping in such an expert for this topic. It was surprising to hear that India is behind in its efforts to improve the peace process, may thats the truth. Also its great to know that our neighbours r no diffrent frm us and as Abhay said the observation about men on street in Pakistan and India is trtuly an eye opener.
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#4
2007-08-07 20:37
insightful interview ...some of the statements by James were like stinging realisations hitting you right in da middle of your head..specially Indians being ignorant about their culture and country...and the Indian mentality of being superior to the neighbour in most terms,makes it easier for us to take away the credits that should have otherwise been given to Pakistan in its Peace process and in Pakistan\'s initiatives to curb terrorism.All in all a good set and flow of questions to da man who can best answer them(read widout prejudice)
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#5
2007-08-07 21:31
Abhishek, very profound indeed!
Once, I participated in a research study where we talked to people from all over the world over the phone. And I talked to a girl from Pakistan for a few minutes. It struck me that her general outlook was very similar to mine. She had no reason to hate India and evidently, she didn\'t.
But this also reminded me of another incident. Once when one of my friends was volunteering at a school for street children, she asked the kids to say \"Mera Bharat Mahaan\". One of them refused to utter these patriotic words. He insisted on saying \"Mera Pakistan mahaan\" instead.
There may be people in Pakistan who don\'t hate India. But what about Indians who hate India? Wonder what Astill would say about this.
Once, I participated in a research study where we talked to people from all over the world over the phone. And I talked to a girl from Pakistan for a few minutes. It struck me that her general outlook was very similar to mine. She had no reason to hate India and evidently, she didn\'t.
But this also reminded me of another incident. Once when one of my friends was volunteering at a school for street children, she asked the kids to say \"Mera Bharat Mahaan\". One of them refused to utter these patriotic words. He insisted on saying \"Mera Pakistan mahaan\" instead.
There may be people in Pakistan who don\'t hate India. But what about Indians who hate India? Wonder what Astill would say about this.
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#6
2007-08-08 09:34
He talks about the Kite flying festival of Basant which is a big hit in Pakistan and feels that not much separates the two countries culturally!
The belief that there\'s not much that separates the two countries culturally is astoundingly naive. While Pakistan is a largely monocultural entity based on Islam, India is a multicultural nation which has more cultural differences with Pakistan than similarities. While most Pakistanis are Muslim, India has a substantial population of Muslim and Christian minorities. Almost onefifth of India is made up of people who dont belong to the majority religion. India has a much wider range of religions, languages, dialects, ideas, political parties etc. Most Pakistanis speak Urdu. There are many Indias who dont speak Hindi. Clubbing India with Pakistan saying they are culturally similar is ignoring the vast difference in culture between southern/eastern and northeastern India and Pakistan. James Astill needs to visit southern/eastern/northeastern India and see for himself how different both the countries are.
The belief that there\'s not much that separates the two countries culturally is astoundingly naive. While Pakistan is a largely monocultural entity based on Islam, India is a multicultural nation which has more cultural differences with Pakistan than similarities. While most Pakistanis are Muslim, India has a substantial population of Muslim and Christian minorities. Almost onefifth of India is made up of people who dont belong to the majority religion. India has a much wider range of religions, languages, dialects, ideas, political parties etc. Most Pakistanis speak Urdu. There are many Indias who dont speak Hindi. Clubbing India with Pakistan saying they are culturally similar is ignoring the vast difference in culture between southern/eastern and northeastern India and Pakistan. James Astill needs to visit southern/eastern/northeastern India and see for himself how different both the countries are.
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#7
2007-08-08 09:36
If the average Pakistani is more aware of his Indian counterpart, it is because of Pakistan‚Äôs ‚ÄúIndocentric‚ Äù nature.
Indians, on the other hand, have a wider worldview than Pakistanis.
Moreover, India is on the trajectory to becoming a major power. India is a successful nation state. Indians, with their new found status, care little about people in a nation which is racing towards state failure.
Indians, on the other hand, have a wider worldview than Pakistanis.
Moreover, India is on the trajectory to becoming a major power. India is a successful nation state. Indians, with their new found status, care little about people in a nation which is racing towards state failure.
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#8
2007-08-08 14:47
James´ observations might be quite true. In my opinion, Indians are THE most racist people in the world. We just like to categorise it as casteist/economic differences or the like. This forum is for the relatively more educated people and there might be many who disagree...but if one sees India as a whole...the majority is still very racist. Even a huge number of the educated lot are tuned to unfairly thinking that every terror act is sponsored by the minorities or by Pakistan...anywhere in the world. For instance, the most wanted terrorist in the UK is Dhiren Barot....how do you explain that?
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#9
2007-08-08 20:11
Cryptichead - As someone who sneers that- \"This forum is for the relatively more educated people and there might be many who disagree...\"- you sure don\'t seem to be even well informed, let alone decently educated.
If you were, you would have known that -
Dhiren Bharot had coneverted to Islam several years before he became the \"most wanted terrorist in UK\".
Also, are you referring to an independent scientific poll, when you claim that Indians are the MOST racist people??
If you were, you would have known that -
Dhiren Bharot had coneverted to Islam several years before he became the \"most wanted terrorist in UK\".
Also, are you referring to an independent scientific poll, when you claim that Indians are the MOST racist people??
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#10
2007-08-08 20:15
Abha et al - I wouldn\'t categorise James, who writes for the Economist, a preachy British Magazine that is not exactly India friendly [to wit - their rabid opposition to the US-India nuke deal] as a nuetral commentrator.
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#11
2007-08-09 07:23
and I am sure you have done a scientific research to say that
lighten up man. pronto!
lighten up man. pronto!
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#12
2007-08-09 08:47
Here is what I think about the interview, James has lived in both the countires that we are talking about. He has also interacted with the \"rough characters\" which make his insights credible enough to me.
When James says Indians and Pakistanis have a lot in common, he is referring to an averge pakisatni on the street and not the ones hiding in the hills. It is fairly easy for me to accept that Pakistanis have a lot in common with the people from punjab area and obviously not Indians living in the north eastern/southern people. I am sure, I (from mumbai) dont have a lot in common with people from northeast. So I dont think its a fair to ridicule his thought about the similarities that he mentions about. I think there is a miunderstanding there.
One of my very good friends in the US is a pakistani and we had the so many things in common. The same arranged marriage, the cricket/bollywood craze, Both of us said the same things while talking about how politicians are ruining the country and a lot more things.
So lets try and understand James\'s point and not make this comment section a Hindu-muslim or India v/s pak thing.
Phew... my longest comment ever!!
When James says Indians and Pakistanis have a lot in common, he is referring to an averge pakisatni on the street and not the ones hiding in the hills. It is fairly easy for me to accept that Pakistanis have a lot in common with the people from punjab area and obviously not Indians living in the north eastern/southern people. I am sure, I (from mumbai) dont have a lot in common with people from northeast. So I dont think its a fair to ridicule his thought about the similarities that he mentions about. I think there is a miunderstanding there.
One of my very good friends in the US is a pakistani and we had the so many things in common. The same arranged marriage, the cricket/bollywood craze, Both of us said the same things while talking about how politicians are ruining the country and a lot more things.
So lets try and understand James\'s point and not make this comment section a Hindu-muslim or India v/s pak thing.
Phew... my longest comment ever!!
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#13
2007-08-25 12:14
He is Right , HIndus are stupid and I dont mind saying so. Btw I am an Atheist from an Hindu family in India.
Well Hindus never learn from history and keep repeating same mistakes again and again. Its pity that Hindus tend to live in their own fool\'s paradise and can\'t even understand the difference between being peacefull and being lame
Hindus never learn from history and keep on repeating same mistakes again and again. First of all you need to realize your enemy but I guess this may not get into minds of many.
Peace and war have different meaning to Hindus and muslims. Hindus believe in sanctity of Life but muslims do NOT. Its a part of their religion to kill their enemies where ever you get a chance while our culture teaches us not to kill unarmed people and innocent people.Yes there have been few Hindu kings who were barbarians but also there have been few muslims kings who were not barbarians. Hindu kings also used to fight but they didn\'t used to kill all inhabitants of place they went to but if you learn from muslims, killing innocent infidels was no big deal for them, in Somnath temple alone citadel were ransacked, and more than 50,000 defenders were massacred and what about millions of more Hindus that were killed.
Lets take another analogy - 1971 war , India took 93,000 POW and released them to have a peace with pakistan as per Shimla aggrement but has there been peace with them ? Do you think if pakistan takes Indian POW then it will leave them ? Veer Saurabh kalia, does this rings some bells ? Pakistan took 5 POW and read how they were slayed. If pakistan ever wins a war against India then don\'t expect anything bad from pakistanis , expect only worse. Don\'t be afraid then to see another genocide in your own land and unfortunately you will have nowhere to run like bangladeshis ran to India , on one side there is Himalayas , on 2 sides there are water bodies and on other side pakistan itself.
Here I have a question for pseudo secularist :-
Who don\'t Muslims fight?
Is there a group on earth that Muslims coexist with?
From what I can tell, they are at war with everyone they touch, including themselves.
Don\'t bring in your individual experience of having 2-3 muslim friends because I too have muslim friend and that too from pakistan but in terms of where it meets culture-to-culture... are there any places where Islam as a culture does not come into conflict with whatever it comes up against?
Well if you look at 1400yrs of history of muslims , I guess its fair enough to comment about the very ideology that they follow. Generally speaking ,
Muslims have never been at peace with Hindus.
Muslims have never been at peace with Jews.
Muslims have never been at peace with Christians.
Muslims have never been at peace with Sikhs.
Muslims have never been at peace with Atheist.
Muslims have never been at peace with muslims themsleves.
PS: One answer I can give you is Shintoists because The Japanese aren\'t stupid and they don\'t allow Muslim immigration.
Well Hindus never learn from history and keep repeating same mistakes again and again. Its pity that Hindus tend to live in their own fool\'s paradise and can\'t even understand the difference between being peacefull and being lame
Hindus never learn from history and keep on repeating same mistakes again and again. First of all you need to realize your enemy but I guess this may not get into minds of many.
Peace and war have different meaning to Hindus and muslims. Hindus believe in sanctity of Life but muslims do NOT. Its a part of their religion to kill their enemies where ever you get a chance while our culture teaches us not to kill unarmed people and innocent people.Yes there have been few Hindu kings who were barbarians but also there have been few muslims kings who were not barbarians. Hindu kings also used to fight but they didn\'t used to kill all inhabitants of place they went to but if you learn from muslims, killing innocent infidels was no big deal for them, in Somnath temple alone citadel were ransacked, and more than 50,000 defenders were massacred and what about millions of more Hindus that were killed.
Lets take another analogy - 1971 war , India took 93,000 POW and released them to have a peace with pakistan as per Shimla aggrement but has there been peace with them ? Do you think if pakistan takes Indian POW then it will leave them ? Veer Saurabh kalia, does this rings some bells ? Pakistan took 5 POW and read how they were slayed. If pakistan ever wins a war against India then don\'t expect anything bad from pakistanis , expect only worse. Don\'t be afraid then to see another genocide in your own land and unfortunately you will have nowhere to run like bangladeshis ran to India , on one side there is Himalayas , on 2 sides there are water bodies and on other side pakistan itself.
Here I have a question for pseudo secularist :-
Who don\'t Muslims fight?
Is there a group on earth that Muslims coexist with?
From what I can tell, they are at war with everyone they touch, including themselves.
Don\'t bring in your individual experience of having 2-3 muslim friends because I too have muslim friend and that too from pakistan but in terms of where it meets culture-to-culture... are there any places where Islam as a culture does not come into conflict with whatever it comes up against?
Well if you look at 1400yrs of history of muslims , I guess its fair enough to comment about the very ideology that they follow. Generally speaking ,
Muslims have never been at peace with Hindus.
Muslims have never been at peace with Jews.
Muslims have never been at peace with Christians.
Muslims have never been at peace with Sikhs.
Muslims have never been at peace with Atheist.
Muslims have never been at peace with muslims themsleves.
PS: One answer I can give you is Shintoists because The Japanese aren\'t stupid and they don\'t allow Muslim immigration.
0
#14
2007-08-25 17:36
Was an enjoyable chat overall, but I only wish you\'d persisted a course of quesitoning more in line with James\' previous line of work as D&T Corr. Am sure we missed out on a lot of amazing sound bytes. That apart, good job, but need to polish your interviewing skills.
While James\' point about why there are differences in perception between the two nations rings completely true, I doubt if it might be applicable to a substial majority of the state, as is exactly the condition here.
What about all the jingositic films we churn out with serious consistency. I would think that wuold also play a part in their perception of us. While we have also accepted the Pak culture in the form of music, I have my doubts as to how much of it would percolate into our ability to go back to being a truly secular nation in mind and thought.
But given the way we cast our eyes suspiciously at the community with every communal riot that breaks out in the country, we indeed have a very long way to go.
While James\' point about why there are differences in perception between the two nations rings completely true, I doubt if it might be applicable to a substial majority of the state, as is exactly the condition here.
What about all the jingositic films we churn out with serious consistency. I would think that wuold also play a part in their perception of us. While we have also accepted the Pak culture in the form of music, I have my doubts as to how much of it would percolate into our ability to go back to being a truly secular nation in mind and thought.
But given the way we cast our eyes suspiciously at the community with every communal riot that breaks out in the country, we indeed have a very long way to go.
0
#15
2007-08-29 12:00
abhishek,
thanks for showing the other side of the story
but, this is pretty hard to believe, where he says pakistan has grown more matured than india, regardless of personal opinions from pakistani localities india has moved far ahead in terms of global competition and today being compared with china and other giant nations.
besides tolerating daily traumas from our own neighboring country, india has still moved on to gain itself a respectable position. slowly gradually may be.. but its happening.
where pakistan is yet to realize the great loss they have been going through due to this mess, they yet to aim for better possibilities
to make themselves stronger as one nation.
where women will be treated equally in all major fields.
i hope, people both sides mature and get over this rivalry and move on to concentrate more on progressing ahead. but till then, no indian will pretend just to sound grown up!
thanks for showing the other side of the story
but, this is pretty hard to believe, where he says pakistan has grown more matured than india, regardless of personal opinions from pakistani localities india has moved far ahead in terms of global competition and today being compared with china and other giant nations.
besides tolerating daily traumas from our own neighboring country, india has still moved on to gain itself a respectable position. slowly gradually may be.. but its happening.
where pakistan is yet to realize the great loss they have been going through due to this mess, they yet to aim for better possibilities
to make themselves stronger as one nation.
where women will be treated equally in all major fields.
i hope, people both sides mature and get over this rivalry and move on to concentrate more on progressing ahead. but till then, no indian will pretend just to sound grown up!
0
#16
2007-11-15 17:06
\"James feels that India\'s sometimes friendly neighbour is changing and that it is India\'s turn to extend its hand for peace. \"
Oh yes, Pakistan has changed. It has changed in that for a change, it has chosen to be ambivalent about democracy and dictatorship. It has changed in that it has chosen to push two mediocre leaders to the front in Bhutto and Sharif. It has changed in that it has a leader who\'s clinging to his throne and pushing his last days of power. It has changed in that in the fifty years of its Independence, it has managed to create a national identity solely on the basis of its anti-Indianism.
Like most journalists, Astill prefers to cover Pakistan because no news is good news. India is a far more boring subject for its relative stability and predictability.
Oh yes, Pakistan has changed. It has changed in that for a change, it has chosen to be ambivalent about democracy and dictatorship. It has changed in that it has chosen to push two mediocre leaders to the front in Bhutto and Sharif. It has changed in that it has a leader who\'s clinging to his throne and pushing his last days of power. It has changed in that in the fifty years of its Independence, it has managed to create a national identity solely on the basis of its anti-Indianism.
Like most journalists, Astill prefers to cover Pakistan because no news is good news. India is a far more boring subject for its relative stability and predictability.
0
#17
2007-11-15 17:38
Hi there!
I hope we share something more in common apart from our name. And what I hope is that we are educated and rational when we draw our conclusions. It is not a secret that Pakistan is in deep trouble at the moment. What\'s happening there is a parody of sorts and it\'s sad. And I share your sentiments.
But, do remember that I spoke to James a good three months ago when the lava was still beneath the ground. Also, I understand your point about anti-indian sentiments which Pakistan has brewed for decades together and it is not a secret either. But, having said that James meant that all of this has hurt Pakistan as well. Currently, Pakistan is losing ground to terrorism with suicide bombers suddenly being the sought after job profile for a few jihadists.
Your last line was a bit disconcerting because among other things, James is currently in India as the South Asia Correspondent and that he covered Islamabad and Afghanistan for a good six years. Also, I am sure that one doesn\'t enter in this profession to cover exciting news! The adrenalin cannot last for that long; max a year! Journalism is much more than, isn\'t it? if you are currently in India (like I am) and if you are a victim of the 24X7 News channels and some of the news that appears in the print section, I can empathise with you! I really do. But, let\'s not draw conclusions and generalise about all journalists!
Good luck with your blog. I see that you have posted something after a long time. Welcome back.
I hope we share something more in common apart from our name. And what I hope is that we are educated and rational when we draw our conclusions. It is not a secret that Pakistan is in deep trouble at the moment. What\'s happening there is a parody of sorts and it\'s sad. And I share your sentiments.
But, do remember that I spoke to James a good three months ago when the lava was still beneath the ground. Also, I understand your point about anti-indian sentiments which Pakistan has brewed for decades together and it is not a secret either. But, having said that James meant that all of this has hurt Pakistan as well. Currently, Pakistan is losing ground to terrorism with suicide bombers suddenly being the sought after job profile for a few jihadists.
Your last line was a bit disconcerting because among other things, James is currently in India as the South Asia Correspondent and that he covered Islamabad and Afghanistan for a good six years. Also, I am sure that one doesn\'t enter in this profession to cover exciting news! The adrenalin cannot last for that long; max a year! Journalism is much more than, isn\'t it? if you are currently in India (like I am) and if you are a victim of the 24X7 News channels and some of the news that appears in the print section, I can empathise with you! I really do. But, let\'s not draw conclusions and generalise about all journalists!
Good luck with your blog. I see that you have posted something after a long time. Welcome back.
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